Episode 2
Candid Conversations On Coping With Mental Health Challenges In Business
Season Two of Unfuck My Business is sponsored by Seide Realty. If you're moving to Florida, Kathleen and her team will unfuck your real estate experience. Learn more at whystpete.com
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About This Episode:
On this episode of Unf*ck My Business, we examine the often-ignored topic of mental health in the workplace. Our host, who personally deals with manic depression and bipolar disorder, brings attention to the 'hustle and grind' mentality that can mask mental illness in the business industry. We explore the impact of high-stress environments, remote work, and societal attitudes on mental health. We also dive into the role of leaders in creating a compassionate space for employees and training people to recognize behavior styles in others to better navigate mental health challenges. With input from healthcare professionals and personal experiences, we discuss ways to cope with mental health issues and remove the stigma around talking about it in the business world. Join us to gain insights on how mental health is not just an individual issue, but also affects organizations and business outcomes.
- Overcoming Fear of Having Conversations About Mental Illness in the Workplace
- Courage to Talk About Mental Illnesses in Business
- Impact of Working Under a CEO with Borderline Personality Disorder
- Importance of Managing Symptoms and Seeking Treatment
- Healthy Business Requires Healthy Employees
- Effect of Remote Work on Neurodivergent Individuals
- Negative Fallout of High-performing Individuals in Corporate Sales Teams
- Importance of Treating Team Members like Humans
- Understanding the Stigma Around Mental Health Issues
- Trauma or Stress as Triggers for Latent Mental Illness
- Importance of Spreading Social and Community Support
- Collective Responsibility to Look Out for People in Crisis
- Breaking Down Barriers by Speaking Openly About Mental Health
- Neglecting Mental Health is not Worth Sacrificing Well-being
- Recognizing Signs of Mental Health Struggles in Remote Working World
- Deviations from Typical Behavior as Red Flags
- Importance of Routine and Boundaries for Mental Health in Business
- Stigma Around Mental Health Issues in Business
- HR Leaders Navigating Mental Health Challenges in Workplace
- Compassionate Space and Candid Conversations as Solution
- Importance of Helping Good Employees Navigate Challenges
If you are in crisis, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at 800-273-8255. You can also get help by texting “HEAL” to the Crisis Text Line at 741741
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In This Episode:
Chris 'Jinx' Jenkins, Danielle Laura, Heather Parbst, Christine 'Christy' Gulledge, Robyn Sayles
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Links Mentioned In The Episode:
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A rough transcript is provided for your convenience. It’s not perfect because we want to spend our time unfucking your business, not unfucking this transcript. 🤘
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Transcript
Hi, everyone. This is Roger Curlin, cofounder of the Pinellas
Speaker:Independent Hospitality Forum. You're listening to on
Speaker:my business? Hey, did you guys just mute me?
Speaker:Cut it out. Anyway, get ready for
Speaker:no bull advice for business owners who want to be resilient as
Speaker:again with the mute button. Come on, guys, what kind of
Speaker:is this? We aren't on some lame censored crap
Speaker:porridge eating.
Speaker:Okay, kids, get ready for the land of Ufmb, where the
Speaker:host will take your and make it shine.
Speaker:And welcome to another episode of Unfuck My Business. And honestly,
Speaker:this is, I think, probably going to be one of the most impactful episodes that
Speaker:we've produced to date. It's a topic that's very near and dear to my
Speaker:heart. We're going to talk today about mental health in business,
Speaker:and it's something that has been a huge sort
Speaker:of elephant in the room, I think, for a long time. There's a big hustle
Speaker:and grind mentality. There's an expectation that we're always on top of things
Speaker:and we're always showing our best face forward. But for
Speaker:me personally, I was diagnosed at 31 with manic depression and
Speaker:bipolar syndrome, or disorder as it's called now. And I felt always
Speaker:that I had to hide that. And because of that, it was something that I
Speaker:fought with basically in solitude. I was
Speaker:alone with it for a long time. And more than being alone
Speaker:with it, it meant that I couldn't sort of justify the
Speaker:phases that I was in and why I was so moody or
Speaker:so up for one week and so down for the next week. All the things
Speaker:that come along with that. People appreciated the magic of the mania,
Speaker:but they never appreciated the downside when that came in afterwards.
Speaker:And that affected people's perception of me in
Speaker:the business space and all the rest of that. And as I started digging into
Speaker:it for myself, I found some interesting things in art
Speaker:and business, both of those sort of industry verticals, there is
Speaker:a much higher than normal representation of a lot of common
Speaker:mental illnesses. We really are out there in force.
Speaker:In fact, we're driving a lot of these things in some really meaningful ways.
Speaker:And so I wanted to facilitate a conversation today, not just with
Speaker:your normal Unfuck My Business crew. We do have Robin and Shay here in the
Speaker:mix, but we also wanted to bring in some healthcare professionals
Speaker:to sort of contribute to the conversation and maybe facilitate
Speaker:ways that we can all cope with these
Speaker:situations better. And how we can sort of have a coming out of sorts
Speaker:to make this not quite such a stigma to talk about,
Speaker:make it not so taboo and really help business owners,
Speaker:entrepreneurs and creatives of all stripes seek the community and
Speaker:the support that they need to be as healthy as they can and
Speaker:to thrive in this space. So, first off, I'm going to introduce our guest today.
Speaker:We have. Danielle, can you just pop in and tell us who you are and
Speaker:what you do? Hey there. Yes, I'm Danielle Laura.
Speaker:I am a former medical executive, clinician, and therapist turned entrepreneur,
Speaker:and I now guide conscious thought leaders and companies in mastering
Speaker:themselves so they can master their mission. Beautiful. And Heather.
Speaker:Hi there. I am a former psychotherapist turned CEO
Speaker:and business owner turned executive coach and consultant,
Speaker:and I work with entrepreneurs and business owners to scale their
Speaker:organizations and address leadership challenges and all other sorts of
Speaker:things that come with that. Fantastic. And Christy?
Speaker:I am a practicing psychotherapist,
Speaker:and I have a virtual practice, 100% virtual practice.
Speaker:I'm licensed in Georgia, South Carolina, and Maryland, so I can
Speaker:spread the love for three or three states.
Speaker:Fantastic. We're certainly glad to have all three of you here. I want
Speaker:to start off with Christy because you are a practicing psychotherapist right
Speaker:now. Do you treat business owners frequently?
Speaker:Are entrepreneurs represented commonly in your practice? Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:I work a lot with the military community and with that
Speaker:because the transient lifestyle. I work with a lot of military
Speaker:spouses, male and female, who end up being entrepreneurs.
Speaker:That kind of same entrepreneurial spirit seems to be helpful
Speaker:with the, I guess the ups and downs that go along with the
Speaker:military as well. So that's something that shows
Speaker:up pretty frequently. I think one of the things that we know
Speaker:about mental illness or disorders or I
Speaker:don't even know what the best term to use for that. I know that mental
Speaker:illness as a phrase kind of has some stigma attached to it
Speaker:still, and maybe there's a better thing to call that. We talk about being neurodivergent
Speaker:quite a bit, and I think that's probably a more common description these
Speaker:days. Stress aggravates the symptoms of those things,
Speaker:and being an entrepreneur is inherently a stressful lifestyle
Speaker:to choose. What are some of the kinds of things that you see business
Speaker:owners, for instance, or the entrepreneurial type mindsets dealing with,
Speaker:and how does stress impact that? So a lot of us
Speaker:fall into that type A sort of category, and that is a
Speaker:benefit, but it's also a detriment. So that perfectionistic tendencies.
Speaker:The world is a dumpster fire at the moment anyway, politically and
Speaker:pandemic. So everybody's baseline is just sort of elevated anyway.
Speaker:So then you throw all of that on top of it, the anxiety, the unknowns.
Speaker:So that seems to be compounded. So just that low threshold seems
Speaker:to be pretty prevalent throughout. Heather and Danielle,
Speaker:both of you have done consulting, and you're working with business
Speaker:owners on a regular basis. Danielle, first, what are the kinds
Speaker:of things that you see in coaching,
Speaker:and what sort of advice are you offering to
Speaker:people who are having some of these issues? Yeah, some of the things that
Speaker:I see oftentimes are one, like physical illness.
Speaker:Like, people will start getting physically ill, whether that's something as, quote unquote
Speaker:simple as just a migraine or being overcome with a disease,
Speaker:like a stress related disease, that they can't really function. So all of
Speaker:our stress gets internalized and then it comes out physically,
Speaker:emotional, dysregulation, so kind of feeling out of source,
Speaker:feeling like you're like lashing out. You are kind of disconnected
Speaker:from yourself because you haven't been connecting to yourself. You've been going,
Speaker:going, going, going, as well as just a lack
Speaker:of happiness or fulfillment that actually is overcoming you to the point where
Speaker:it's beyond just everyday normal stressors. But it's at the
Speaker:point where sometimes you're thinking, about just completely shifting
Speaker:your entire life around, whether that's moving across the country, quitting your business,
Speaker:starting something like very life altering types of situations as
Speaker:well. Start then kind of going through your mind. So I would say those are
Speaker:the. Three main things that I see a lot of. And Heather, I know that
Speaker:you specifically work a lot in operations and providing operational guidance.
Speaker:Have you worked with business owners in the past who are dealing with mental health
Speaker:issues? And how do you help a business adjust around that from
Speaker:an operational perspective to keep it rolling and keep it profitable?
Speaker:I mean, I think the big thing really is to work
Speaker:through the business owner and the entrepreneur and getting
Speaker:them to a point where they're really able to even own that it's
Speaker:an issue. And a lot of it comes down to them feeling such pressure
Speaker:to keep a facade up of perfection. And we've got it all together,
Speaker:whether that's internally with their team, where they have to be
Speaker:the rock, they have to always be in control and making
Speaker:the decisions. Or whether that's externally to the public
Speaker:or to investors or whatever. So I think really a
Speaker:lot of it comes down to working with the owner to recognize
Speaker:that it doesn't have to be that way and how their
Speaker:efforts at maintaining that are actually not
Speaker:just negatively impacting themselves, which to Danielle's point, I mean,
Speaker:many of them are so stressed, but it's actually negatively impacting their organization
Speaker:too. So just helping them gain a little bit of insight
Speaker:and it often is such a relief once they see that,
Speaker:oh, somebody gets it, somebody understands this isn't
Speaker:I'm not alone here anymore, I'm feeling heard. And then it's just like
Speaker:at all the floodgates open and immediately there's
Speaker:I think some healing that happens just in being heard. But then they become much
Speaker:more open to implementing some strategies and things like that to
Speaker:help them manage themselves so they can show up better in their work.
Speaker:It took a lot for me to get to the point where I felt comfortable
Speaker:enough and really to be operating in a place of privilege to be able to
Speaker:have these conversations because I got past, oh God,
Speaker:I'm going to get fired or something. Once you're an established entrepreneur,
Speaker:that's no longer the concern, but it is a concern when you're
Speaker:taking hits to profitability or the organization is worried.
Speaker:I mean, there's an organizational anxiety that can occur sort
Speaker:of as an ephemeral underground. Everybody feels it,
Speaker:but nobody talks about it. What's the boss going to do? And I've
Speaker:worked for some borderline personality disorder CEOs
Speaker:and such, who. You are just traumatized by the
Speaker:experience because they're going to love bomb you one day and then the next
Speaker:day they're going to be telling you you're the most worthless piece of shit ever
Speaker:and over some minor, trivial mistake that
Speaker:shouldn't be having this sort of impact. Those kinds of things are
Speaker:very difficult to manage. And I think part of having a healthy business,
Speaker:despite maybe having some mental illness challenges or
Speaker:being neurodivergent, is being willing to take
Speaker:that on, being in a place where you're seeking treatment or you're
Speaker:seeking to manage your symptoms better. And obviously with some
Speaker:disorders, that's more likely. I mean, I think a lot of us
Speaker:in the bipolar space, the folks that I talk to in my support groups and
Speaker:such, they all honestly want to manage their
Speaker:symptoms and to improve and have a better quality of life, whereas we don't
Speaker:necessarily see that. And I'm certainly not casting aspersions here, so please don't take this
Speaker:personally, but I don't see that as much in maybe the Bpd
Speaker:group or the NPD groups, where those folks are
Speaker:really just kind of struggling to even sort of accept culpability for
Speaker:their behavior at all. But I found something super interesting about the pandemic
Speaker:this last year. Obviously,
Speaker:isolation is not healthy for people dealing with
Speaker:mental illnesses. Frequently that you start to see some destructive
Speaker:behavior come out and depression increases and things along that line.
Speaker:So I'm certainly not encouraging loneliness. But with
Speaker:the big move to remote work for a lot of companies,
Speaker:what we have seen is the ability for people to be
Speaker:a little bit more flexible in their workspace and in their work schedule and
Speaker:all the rest of that. And I think to me that's been sort of a
Speaker:positive a benefit. Because if you are neurodivergent and you're not
Speaker:following the same sleep schedules or you're on a Manic
Speaker:run now and maybe you need a couple of days to recharge after that when
Speaker:you're hitting a low remote work, I think, facilitates that in
Speaker:some ways that really almost nothing else does.
Speaker:Christy, what are your thoughts on the
Speaker:future of remote work for potentially neurodivergent people?
Speaker:I think it shifted the mindset already because there was sort of a stigma associated
Speaker:with I think if we think about online education, it kind of started out
Speaker:as like, oh, no, or online dating even for that matter. I mean,
Speaker:when we were in I'll date myself. But back in high school,
Speaker:or not too long after high school, that was like you never wanted
Speaker:to tell anybody you met somebody online. So things have started to shift and
Speaker:so that I think is where the remote work can come in
Speaker:handy with that just showing maybe more
Speaker:rigid employers that it is possible and maybe even
Speaker:more productive to have that as an option. Do you think
Speaker:that it should be the case for people who are neurodivergent
Speaker:that flexibility and scheduling and all the rest of that? I mean, I don't know
Speaker:what the requirements are for like an Ada accommodation, but is the
Speaker:future of work something that is more amenable to neurodivergence? Oh,
Speaker:absolutely. I mean, I guess it depends on what type of career path
Speaker:that you have chosen that's going to make a difference,
Speaker:but it definitely is more amenable to just
Speaker:mental health issues across the board. And if we want to be real, all of
Speaker:us has mental health related issues. Somebody who comes to me, doesn't have to
Speaker:come to me for severe and persistent mental illness, that's great and
Speaker:I can absolutely help with that. But it could be just transitional sort of issues,
Speaker:life stressors pandemic, like we're all going through it,
Speaker:so let's figure this out. Everybody's baseline is
Speaker:just elevated and if you're career minded that type A
Speaker:sort of behavior which I happen to fall into that particular category,
Speaker:your anxiety level is just already you're
Speaker:off the charts already. So then you have just the existing in a pandemic,
Speaker:it's creating less and less space for you to function.
Speaker:So if you're able to mitigate some of that by altering
Speaker:because how often do people with mental health related concerns call
Speaker:in sick to work? And a lot of it is just because it's
Speaker:so difficult to get up and leave the house, the anxiety just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker:But if you can just log in from home work when you feel
Speaker:your best, whatever that looks like for that particular day,
Speaker:week, month, it can be life changing
Speaker:and it fosters self esteem. So if you start to think, well, I got to
Speaker:continue to call into work, I'm worthless, that's a narrative that often runs.
Speaker:Unfortunately, you can still find validity and worth within yourself a
Speaker:little bit easier than if you had to try to drag yourself into the
Speaker:office. I know that when I started a course of medication in 2006
Speaker:when I was in a healthcare company at the time and the side effects of
Speaker:that medication just made it very difficult for me to deal with people.
Speaker:Sometimes tracking conversations and things would be challenging.
Speaker:And so I was able at the time to get an accommodation to
Speaker:work from home while I was adjusting to that medication and that was
Speaker:a game changer for me. But at the time still there was that stigma
Speaker:that if you're working from home, you're not part of the main sort of
Speaker:core of the business, you're outside of it.
Speaker:There was that whole perspective of you were sort of a second class employee
Speaker:whereas I think now, especially after the last year, we don't see
Speaker:that being the case very much. Danielle, I've talked to some of the
Speaker:people that you've worked with as a coach who talk about you helping
Speaker:them unlock their potential and sort of creating some organizational
Speaker:systems around how they approach their day, their schedule,
Speaker:their week, whatever the case may be. I don't know how often you've dealt
Speaker:with somebody who has some sort of a specific mental health issue,
Speaker:but what are the kinds of things that you recommend when you're helping to sort
Speaker:of get people unfucked, to use our
Speaker:terminology? I find routine to be helpful for pretty much
Speaker:anybody, at least to some degree. So having certain days where you're
Speaker:doing certain things in your business is great. Maybe you have client facing days,
Speaker:then you have administrative days, maybe creative days, depending on what
Speaker:type of business you're in to where you can really harness your energy and
Speaker:your mental health for that particular day. If that day you're working
Speaker:with clients, your mental place is going to be maybe a little bit different than
Speaker:if you have a day where you just get to do administrative stuff and,
Speaker:you know, you don't have to people that day or whatever. Right.
Speaker:So that's a big thing, having routine, then having really
Speaker:strict boundaries around those routines and the things that you need to
Speaker:especially protect your energy as well. If you are in business and
Speaker:you work with people and you're in a service based business, you taking on energy
Speaker:from other people all the time can also really drastically affect
Speaker:your own mental health. Because sometimes you're like, I don't even know if this is
Speaker:mine or if this is what I'm feeling empathically
Speaker:because my client is going through this or whatever, right? So understanding kind
Speaker:of what's yours and what's not, and putting really strong boundaries in place
Speaker:to support your mental health. So having cut off times,
Speaker:for example, in your workday, let's say you finish at a certain time each
Speaker:day, or maybe you have certain days, you have late days and then certain days
Speaker:that you're earlier to really help balance out that kind of that
Speaker:work life. Harmony. I don't really even like the word balance because
Speaker:it looks so different for everybody, but I like the word harmony, what feels like
Speaker:it's in harmony for you. And coming to that conclusion, I think is really
Speaker:important. Another thing that really helps with mental
Speaker:health, I see is having a creative outlet. So something that
Speaker:allows you to center your energy and get you back,
Speaker:like reinvigorated, whatever that is. Some people, that might be meditation, some people
Speaker:it's like drawing or painting. Maybe some people it's going
Speaker:for a hike or working out. It doesn't have to look the same for everybody.
Speaker:But having some sort of creative outlet that takes you out
Speaker:of your head and back into your heart or into your body and just lets
Speaker:you be one with yourself, that's going to be really important for you to have
Speaker:on a daily basis, even if it's just ten minutes. But having
Speaker:that every single day and then having, I say, at least one
Speaker:day off, where that your whole day is just you being able to recenter
Speaker:or do whatever it is for your self care, soul care,
Speaker:whatever that looks like for you. But having those things in place,
Speaker:just those few things as non negotiables, I've seen be that
Speaker:1% difference from those who are able to cope really well
Speaker:with their mental health versus those who kind of allow it to overcome
Speaker:them to a point where they need more significant help.
Speaker:Beautiful Heather. How do you mitigate unhealthy
Speaker:behavior when you see that in a business environment that
Speaker:you're in? I mean, whether it's we see obviously
Speaker:a lot of dependency issues with folks who are dealing with mental health issues
Speaker:and that leads to all the associated problems that come with that.
Speaker:If you've got people I've got a good friend who has very, very aggressive
Speaker:ADHD and when they're not medicating aggressively, they have a hard
Speaker:time meeting their requirements and getting work turned down on time and all
Speaker:the rest of that. From a leadership perspective, how do you mitigate
Speaker:some of those things when you see them in your business? It's funny that we
Speaker:are bringing this up because I was just having a conversation with an HR leader
Speaker:around this and in that situation you're navigating
Speaker:laws and regulations and you have to make sure all the I's are dotted
Speaker:and the t's are crossed. And I'm really grateful to see that a
Speaker:lot of leaders are really starting to recognize that while,
Speaker:yes, you do have to do things to protect the business when things are happening
Speaker:like this, there's a lot that can be done in
Speaker:just creating a compassionate space for people and having
Speaker:some candid conversations. And this isn't just
Speaker:like with employees, but with leaders as well. There's a lot of times where it's
Speaker:just like sometimes it's really the leader that's bringing the it's the entrepreneur
Speaker:that's bringing in the mental health challenges and they just aren't
Speaker:aware of how their settings are different
Speaker:than their employee settings, right? And they'll
Speaker:get caught up in this space of not being able to
Speaker:they don't understand sometimes why not
Speaker:everybody wants to work 13 hours a day and why we
Speaker:can't just be kind of driving all of the time and those sorts of things.
Speaker:And so really just working with them to
Speaker:step back and examine this as
Speaker:just examine this objectively and really put themselves in
Speaker:the other person's shoes. We do a lot around in
Speaker:the role I'm in now. We do a lot around different behavior styles and
Speaker:teaching people to recognize those behavior styles in
Speaker:others. And of course, when you're bringing in mental health challenges and
Speaker:things like that, that can be compounded, but just being able to really relate
Speaker:to someone else and teaching people to do that, I think, is a big
Speaker:part of this. But the biggest thing, I think really is you're
Speaker:talking about how to mitigate it.
Speaker:I don't know if this is just my heart speaking, but I think
Speaker:a lot of it really does come down to compassionately showing up for the other
Speaker:person and just making space for that and not stigmatizing
Speaker:their behavior. But really having a vulnerable and
Speaker:open conversation around what's happening, what's driving
Speaker:this, giving them the space and the support that they need to navigate
Speaker:whatever it is that's on their plate. I think you get a lot more out
Speaker:of employee. And I'm not just talking about from the human side of things,
Speaker:but even from a purely ROI perspective,
Speaker:hiring and firing is expensive as hell, right?
Speaker:So if you can work with a good employee to help
Speaker:them navigate whatever challenge that they're having, they're going to be grateful.
Speaker:They're going to be more loyal to you and the organization,
Speaker:and that just works in everybody's best interest. I love
Speaker:that. And actually, it's a perfect transitional point because
Speaker:I have often been remarkably and I'm not even sure
Speaker:why to this day. I think mostly it's just because I've proven that I'm willing
Speaker:to listen and that I hold people's confidence as dear. I have
Speaker:often been the person that people go to when they're in crisis,
Speaker:but I, at the same time, have not always felt comfortable
Speaker:sharing when I'm in crisis and don't always
Speaker:feel necessarily like I've got a dedicated person to go
Speaker:to on that. Robin, you had a point to make before I fully transition.
Speaker:Sorry, go ahead. No worries, no worries.
Speaker:I love what Heather brought up, and I
Speaker:was shaking my head so vehemently, along with
Speaker:so many of the points she was making. When I was working with corporate sales
Speaker:teams, we had the concept of what we called the net negative.
Speaker:The top performer on the team or the leader of the team might
Speaker:be hitting goal, but the wake of emotional
Speaker:upheaval left behind them because of their
Speaker:poor mental state or because of
Speaker:the way that they treated the mental issues that they were creating amongst the team.
Speaker:I don't care if you're 100% over your goal, if no one else is
Speaker:going to reach their goal, because you make them feel like shit all
Speaker:the time, right? That is a net negative.
Speaker:And getting leadership to understand that the ROI
Speaker:is actually in your favor to remove that person from the environment
Speaker:rather than to let that net negative fester. And the
Speaker:flip side of that is to Heather's point of when we
Speaker:treat humans like humans and we have human conversations and
Speaker:we leave room for compassion next to the goals,
Speaker:you can get remarkable transformations.
Speaker:So in my banking days, we had this branch that
Speaker:was like, Guys, it's so sad. This branch
Speaker:was literally the butt of the jokes. This was
Speaker:literally the worst performing branch. And it
Speaker:was just like a common thing, like, oh, well, at least you're not seminal.
Speaker:They were always the bottom. And I was
Speaker:regional sales manager for this organization. And I happened to just strike
Speaker:up a friendship with the woman who had recently taken over a group
Speaker:of branches, including that one, because she treated
Speaker:that branch manager like a human and had human conversations
Speaker:with her and brought things to her attention that nobody had ever brought
Speaker:to her attention before. She was able to literally
Speaker:take that branch from worst to first,
Speaker:right? Anyone else would have gone in and quote,
Speaker:unquote, cleaned house like, oh, these are the bottom.
Speaker:Obviously, they don't know what they're doing. Let's just get rid of them and we'll
Speaker:start over, right? And instead, she took the
Speaker:time to not just address it,
Speaker:but help that person blossom. And they literally went from the
Speaker:bottom of the chart and the butt of jokes to winning
Speaker:all the awards, crushing all the goals, becoming the branch
Speaker:to beat, because she went in and she treated them like human beings,
Speaker:not like things that needed to get out of the way so we can reach
Speaker:our goals, right? And so think having a
Speaker:human approach and trying to understand where
Speaker:behavior is coming from when we are experiencing
Speaker:these moments, and that's externally with
Speaker:people on our team above and below us. But I think that's
Speaker:internally, too. That's internally, too.
Speaker:Like, where is this behavior that I'm exhibiting right now coming from?
Speaker:And I was so thankful when Christy earlier opened it up to the fact
Speaker:of mental health issues is not just
Speaker:people with a clinical diagnosis, right?
Speaker:Whether we feel the acute impacts of
Speaker:it or not, we're all going through a mental health issue
Speaker:right now with the global pandemic, and it's affecting us
Speaker:in different ways. And I'm watching children struggle
Speaker:with virtual learning. I'm watching people
Speaker:who needed to get out of the house every day and now can't
Speaker:get out of the house every day, come to reckon what that
Speaker:means for themselves. And how do I get alone time for
Speaker:my own well being when I'm literally never alone anymore?
Speaker:Working from home isn't a beautiful gift for a lot of people out
Speaker:there. It's a nightmare, and they can't wait for the
Speaker:office to open back up again. And so I think it's
Speaker:much broader than just having
Speaker:a diagnosed mental issue, right?
Speaker:And this is part of breaking this stigma. You don't have
Speaker:to be clinically depressed to experience depression.
Speaker:You don't have to suffer from anxiety to experience anxiety,
Speaker:right? And we can all experience the toll
Speaker:and the impact of these incredible forces that
Speaker:we're all dealing with right now. And so having you on
Speaker:here to help us with the validation and
Speaker:the tips and tricks to get through it, I think is impactful
Speaker:on me even just now. But I wanted to touch on
Speaker:those two points before we got any further down the rabbit hole.
Speaker:And good, because I'm definitely serving up a huge
Speaker:transition here. So I'm glad we were able to get that point in.
Speaker:One of the things I think a lot of people don't realize is it's
Speaker:not like you're just born with some mental
Speaker:health diagnosis or anything along that line. I mean, it's, you know, all sorts
Speaker:of pathologies can manifest at any point in time in your life based on trauma,
Speaker:based on stress, based on the things that you're going through. And a lot of
Speaker:people will be perfectly fine with some latent mental
Speaker:illness that they've never had to deal with, has never
Speaker:manifested in any significant way, and then suddenly go through a high stress
Speaker:phase and have that trigger. I mean, I've read
Speaker:some literature about folks suddenly manifesting a
Speaker:schizophrenic later in life and needing heavy treatment,
Speaker:heavy medicinal treatment to be able to manage that well because
Speaker:they went through some major trauma or something along that line that just sort of
Speaker:triggered that and set that off. I know that for me personally,
Speaker:when I've sort of dipped my toes into getting some
Speaker:social or community support, one of the things that I do is
Speaker:sort of spread that out. I talk to some
Speaker:people about some things and some people about other things, but I rarely talk
Speaker:to one person about everything because then it maybe seems all like too
Speaker:much and I'm not trying to like I
Speaker:don't want them going, oh God, somebody go lock him up for his
Speaker:own good or something. And it all seems super huge in
Speaker:your head. But over the last twelve months, we've lost a
Speaker:couple of friends who hit some point that they just felt like
Speaker:they couldn't get past. And I think that there are a
Speaker:lot more people out there who were sort of on the edge of that
Speaker:than we might even realize right now. And despite all of
Speaker:the hey, come together and call me
Speaker:if you need me kind of posts that we see on social media generally
Speaker:when people hit that level of crisis,
Speaker:they're not really thinking, let me go reach out to that person who
Speaker:made that post on Facebook. That's not what's happening in the
Speaker:moment. And I think without placing blame or responsibility,
Speaker:I do think that it's kind of on us collectively to keep an eye out
Speaker:on our friends and our partners and all the rest of that to sort
Speaker:of to notice when people are going into crisis.
Speaker:And so what I'd like to do is roundtable this a little bit.
Speaker:And starting with Christy as the practicing psychotherapist,
Speaker:what are some clear signs that everyone should
Speaker:be on the lookout for that somebody's actually in crisis? Whether or
Speaker:not they're really talking about. That just deviations
Speaker:standard, patterns of behavior, anything. That kind of stands out as atypical
Speaker:for that particular person, I think is something that we can all
Speaker:just kind of focus on as red flags.
Speaker:True suicidal ideations are going to be something that is everything that
Speaker:you think of them saying goodbye, giving up their belongings, those sorts
Speaker:of things. But it's looking different these days. I've noticed
Speaker:a shift just since the pandemic started with people who are experiencing depressive symptoms
Speaker:in that they just feel overwhelmed and don't know what to do. And it's
Speaker:not so much that they want to die, they just want this
Speaker:to end and they don't see hope at the light at the
Speaker:end of the tunnel. With the vaccinations being more
Speaker:prevalent, I'm noticing that people's outlook has
Speaker:shifted. But it's something as simple as like Robin
Speaker:mentioned, that kids are struggling with this online schooling.
Speaker:I mean, it's hard for adults to focus on online schooling, much less
Speaker:kids who their attention span is shorter. They don't have the stimulation.
Speaker:And I've worked with teachers who are having a hard time with it. They're already
Speaker:at their max and they're seeing kids struggle, but don't
Speaker:have the mental bandwidth to even help the kids rally,
Speaker:like get it together. If it was in a classroom, they might
Speaker:physically pull them aside and talk to them about what's going on,
Speaker:but they don't even have the mental fortitude to be
Speaker:able to do that. So just anything that's kind of shifting from what
Speaker:would be their baseline. If they're a dedicated teacher,
Speaker:and now all of a sudden, this dedicated teacher doesn't have the bandwidth to even
Speaker:support their students, then that's something to watch out for,
Speaker:because everybody's candles burning at both ends when we're talking about
Speaker:the stressors that are going to get you to the place where you're actually thinking
Speaker:of that. I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker:It's not that they want to die necessarily, but they just want it
Speaker:to stop. And I think that's what is at the core of
Speaker:anybody who's considering that. It's just I don't know what else to
Speaker:do and I want this to stop, and this is the only way I can
Speaker:think of to get it to stop. Danielle I
Speaker:definitely agree with Christy. The Dysregulation
Speaker:in one's emotions and the things that they normally would love to do that now
Speaker:they're not doing, or their typical the personality might be one
Speaker:way most of the time, and now all of a sudden it's suddenly different,
Speaker:right? All of a sudden they're experiencing a lot of emotions that
Speaker:are kind of more heavy. Things like rage, projection,
Speaker:even thoughts of not wanting to be here,
Speaker:dissociation, things like that, extreme burnout to
Speaker:where their whole persona just kind of becomes different. Like very lackluster,
Speaker:very withdrawn. That's another really big thing. Those are
Speaker:the most prevalent ones that I see right off the top
Speaker:of my head. Another. So this actually affects me personally because
Speaker:I lost a family member to suicide. And I remember as we're talking about
Speaker:this conversation, thinking back to some of the things that I noticed during
Speaker:that time. And yes, all of that is true about the change in behavior,
Speaker:but he went quiet on us, like, just kind of just
Speaker:stopped engaging. And as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking about
Speaker:that and how particularly in this remote working world,
Speaker:we run such a risk of losing connection with
Speaker:our team members and not knowing. We just don't know.
Speaker:And I forget who said earlier, I think, Robin, you were talking about how sometimes
Speaker:it's hell being at home, right? So for many people, work is
Speaker:an escape. And now they are surrounded by some of
Speaker:the very things that might trigger them most. And we,
Speaker:as their team members or their employers or employees, can't see
Speaker:that. So I think everything that Danielle and Christy said and also,
Speaker:I think employers, it's important to,
Speaker:especially during this time when we are more at home,
Speaker:look for ways to keep your people and your team engaged with you,
Speaker:so you can kind of just keep an eye on it helps with employee
Speaker:engagement across the board. But also, I think it's another way of kind of
Speaker:having a checks and balances around this sort of thing. And then
Speaker:we're talking a lot about signs and symptoms and things like that.
Speaker:And I think, too, I know you have a lot of entrepreneurs that listen to
Speaker:this program, and I think for them, there is this
Speaker:again, we're back to that conversation about that need
Speaker:to kind of have that appearance up and be going all of the time.
Speaker:And I think as Danielle was talking about Burnout, I think
Speaker:we are as entrepreneurs and me being
Speaker:one, we have a tendency to just go, go and not look for
Speaker:those symptoms in ourselves and
Speaker:maybe even self sacrifice a lot. We see this
Speaker:maybe even a little bit more with women. And I think
Speaker:checking in with yourself and being aware of that and recognizing that you
Speaker:bring this is to all the entrepreneurs out there. You bring one
Speaker:of the things that you bring to this world is this gift
Speaker:of building organizations and creating jobs and
Speaker:those sorts of things. But it is only one. And it is not worth throwing
Speaker:yourself, sacrificing yourself for that. There are so many other things that
Speaker:we bring to this world. And I think entrepreneurs have a tendency sometimes to get
Speaker:caught up in all of the things that come with being an entrepreneur.
Speaker:And we forget that that is only one piece of our identity
Speaker:that's super important. And it's funny because I hear withdrawal.
Speaker:That's my go to tactic. When I'm overwhelmed,
Speaker:everyone expects to see me on social media frequently,
Speaker:and I'll disappear for a little bit, stop participating in groups that
Speaker:I actively participate in all the time. Things along that line,
Speaker:it's hard to be in pain in public.
Speaker:And so we tend to withdraw from that. And yeah, working from
Speaker:home, if I don't have to go to the office and see people, I can
Speaker:continue functioning in a meaningful
Speaker:way without people noticing that
Speaker:I'm kind of nosediving. And that
Speaker:is kind of dangerous in the mix to some degree.
Speaker:And of course, we go through those same things, hearing about
Speaker:burnout and looking at the future and going, oh God,
Speaker:what am I even doing here? Is there some place where this starts to change?
Speaker:And for those of us who are prone to dependency type
Speaker:behavior, that's also when the drinking ramps up and all
Speaker:the rest of that and to the point where it becomes destructive.
Speaker:Those are all like super challenging places to be.
Speaker:So I know that I deal with a lot
Speaker:of my issues with humor frequently.
Speaker:Usually by the time I'm posting something on Facebook about it,
Speaker:I'm already past the moment of crisis. And that's
Speaker:when I'll get all the are you okay? Messages and all the rest of that.
Speaker:It's like, yeah, I'm fine now. It was when I wasn't posting last week that
Speaker:I was going through this rotten. Please. I just wanted to take
Speaker:a moment to say we've talked a lot about symptoms to
Speaker:look out for and things to recognize in ourselves and in others.
Speaker:And I would like to add as someone who has had to make the call,
Speaker:that if you see those things, please pick up the phone. Please make the call.
Speaker:My best friend had a very rough day and was sending me all sorts of
Speaker:scary messages. And then I got a text message that said, thank you for everything
Speaker:that you've ever done for me. And then she stopped answering my text
Speaker:messages and my phone calls. And so I had to do
Speaker:the thing that I never thought I'd have to do, which is call the suicide
Speaker:hotline and say, what do I do? And they said, you need to send the
Speaker:police for a well checkup, a visit,
Speaker:a wellness check. And they went and the
Speaker:911 operator stayed on the phone with me until the police physically
Speaker:saw her and saw that she was okay. And then
Speaker:the policeman called me and said, I can't tell you where we're taking her,
Speaker:but we are taking her somewhere where she can get help. And the incredible
Speaker:conflicted emotions that you will feel during
Speaker:that process will have your brain screaming at you that you've made
Speaker:a mistake or you've done the wrong thing or you've blown this out of proportion.
Speaker:And the whole time I thought, well, she's either going to hate me and never
Speaker:going to talk to me again or she's going to thank me. And luckily she
Speaker:thanked me. And every year around that time, she'll post
Speaker:about how I saved her life. And I don't care about that. I care
Speaker:that when I text her, she's still there and she answers.
Speaker:I care that we still get to have these conversations because
Speaker:I made that phone call, and I don't know what would have happened if
Speaker:I didn't make that phone call. So if anything
Speaker:in your gut is like, oh, I don't like the tone of that. Oh,
Speaker:it's weird that they're not answering. Take action,
Speaker:go knock on the door, send the police,
Speaker:make the phone call, do whatever you have to do,
Speaker:because it could literally be a matter of life and
Speaker:death with that person on the other side of that. Yeah. And that's
Speaker:a huge thing for those of us who are entrepreneurs
Speaker:who are experiencing that point of crisis.
Speaker:What should we be doing?
Speaker:If you know for yourself right now, you are struggling and you're
Speaker:in a bad place, what is the next step to do?
Speaker:And I'll open that up to whoever wants to unmute. Christie, go ahead.
Speaker:I mean, at the very least, reach out so that the National Suicide Prevention
Speaker:Hotline is there 24 hours a day, seven days a week,
Speaker:365 days a year. You do not have to call if you are actively
Speaker:ready to take your life. You have a day where you're overwhelmed.
Speaker:Call that at the very least, call that number. Dial 911, goes to the
Speaker:nearest emergency room, but that number is 802 738255.
Speaker:And they also have a text option as well,
Speaker:which is for certain demographics. That's more
Speaker:approachable than calling this number and actually speaking with somebody verbally,
Speaker:verbally, something like that. And I know, Heather, you had
Speaker:a point that you wanted to add there as well. Yeah. When you
Speaker:were talking about your experience. James, I was thinking about because
Speaker:I follow you on social media, and I love
Speaker:how you are able to be vulnerable and put out there your
Speaker:thoughts on all of these things. And I think that that's incredibly helpful,
Speaker:and I think having this podcast is another great example of that.
Speaker:But in thinking through this topic in general, I feel like
Speaker:part of it really is just understanding that we're
Speaker:all dealing with it, and entrepreneurs in particular.
Speaker:Because I think about when. My issue has always been around anxiety,
Speaker:depression, many years ago, but definitely anxiety.
Speaker:Especially when I was heading up a company and there
Speaker:was such a pressure on me to not show that,
Speaker:to not speak it. And it's just and it's tragic because
Speaker:I remember sitting at a table with about three or
Speaker:four other women entrepreneurs, and we were
Speaker:kind of skirting like, you could tell everybody just seemed to be so stressed
Speaker:and overwhelmed and overburdened,
Speaker:and nobody would really speak it. And then we just started
Speaker:talking about it, and it was just like, again, it was like the floodgates open
Speaker:and people are like, oh, I didn't know you've struggled with all
Speaker:of the stress around whether or not you're going to be able to pay your
Speaker:employees. And they didn't know you've had to not be able to take a paycheck.
Speaker:And I didn't know that you've been struggling with insomnia and all of
Speaker:these sorts of things just started coming out and I think somebody
Speaker:may appear perfect, but they're not.
Speaker:They're struggling with this stuff too. And I think it's particularly
Speaker:when it comes to when you're dealing with things like HR and things like that,
Speaker:we do need to stop looking at it as mental illness and recognize that
Speaker:mental health is just like any other kind of health, right? It's very
Speaker:convenient for the
Speaker:medical world, for health insurance companies to label
Speaker:things as illness. But if we look at it as just different settings
Speaker:that everybody has on Continuums that
Speaker:manifest in different ways, I think we can just look at everybody with
Speaker:a little bit more compassion. And I think speaking this stuff and being
Speaker:yes, you don't want to throw everything out there.
Speaker:I understand that there's hesitancy there in fear of being judgment,
Speaker:of being judged. But I think the more that we just recognize and
Speaker:speak to the fact that, yeah, I deal with this and you deal with that,
Speaker:and we're all in this together, and there is no
Speaker:reason to label or separate. Or make someone an Other
Speaker:because they're struggling with something around their mental well being.
Speaker:I think that is going to really start transforming the landscape of
Speaker:all of this. Well, and we do have this thing where part
Speaker:of being an entrepreneur is always broadcasting success and
Speaker:control and calm, cool, collected leadership and all
Speaker:the rest of that because it affects your bottom line. People aren't going to come
Speaker:hire your company if they think that you're unstable or
Speaker:out of control and all the rest of those things. And the expectation
Speaker:is that if you're dealing with some mental health issue, then you're probably
Speaker:not a good bet, so to speak. Where some of
Speaker:these issues are lifelong issues. Of course we know how to manage
Speaker:them and do our business around them. We've been training for this for decades
Speaker:and especially when it's later in life.
Speaker:And people who've dealt with chronic depression for decades, they know how to
Speaker:sort of manage their life around that to some degree,
Speaker:assuming that they're in a reasonably healthy place.
Speaker:But I've also found that even when you do talk
Speaker:about some of these things publicly sometimes it's still just a point of
Speaker:humor, all things considered. I made a post
Speaker:the other day about how I slept 90 minutes the night
Speaker:before and I'd gotten another 90 minutes nap in like 24 hours later
Speaker:and I was up wide awake watching gold mining shows on
Speaker:Discovery. I was absolutely
Speaker:at a manic peak at that point. Anxiety was driving my brain nonstop.
Speaker:I was in that constant mental spiral of just looping over
Speaker:the same issues over and over and over again. I could not even
Speaker:trying to do like some sort of guided meditation or whatever, I just
Speaker:couldn't do it because instead of the cool creek in my head and the trickling
Speaker:water sounds, it was just like paisley and cats,
Speaker:like just wild sort of mental hallucinations,
Speaker:just very disordered thought. And so I post about
Speaker:that on social media and then it's like everybody's like laugh,
Speaker:reacting, ha, how funny that is. But in the moment, it really wasn't
Speaker:actually that funny. I was very much in crisis at that point in time.
Speaker:I just wanted some damn sleep. I think it's still a very
Speaker:difficult conversation to have in a meaningful way in any sort
Speaker:of a public fashion because a some of these topics are
Speaker:sort of inherently funny in our comedy sort of
Speaker:culture. I mean, the crazy person, right? That's always been
Speaker:sort of the punchline, so to speak, and just looking
Speaker:at how we treat mental illness in the homeless and in
Speaker:vets and all the rest of that and how little real understanding there is of
Speaker:listen, this person could very much be on the edge of a
Speaker:breakdown with significant negative consequences.
Speaker:It's not a joke. And sort of trying to both
Speaker:normalize that conversation so that people are encouraged to have it,
Speaker:while also balancing that public expectation
Speaker:of who are you and should I trust doing
Speaker:business with you? I think that I really love the fact that
Speaker:you all have kind of brought up how broad mental
Speaker:health is as a topic and not just about pathologies,
Speaker:because there are so many people out there, especially after this
Speaker:pandemic, especially after the lockdown and the isolation and all the rest of that,
Speaker:that are potentially on the edge of that. And part of the
Speaker:reason why I always try to take the call, even when it's inconvenient,
Speaker:is because I don't know if that's the time, if that's
Speaker:the day, if that's the person, and I don't ever want to be the person
Speaker:who let that individual fall off the edge.
Speaker:As we wrap up here, because we're getting to the end, I would love to
Speaker:get some final thoughts from each of you and I'm just going to go ahead
Speaker:and start with Danielle. What's coming up for me right
Speaker:away is just this understanding of let's break the
Speaker:stigma of mental health in business. Let's start talking about it more.
Speaker:Let's start talking about the fact that we're not okay,
Speaker:or it's a tough day, or our anxiety is getting the best of us,
Speaker:whatever the case may be, and come to this place of vulnerability
Speaker:where it's not even just like it's not awkward, it's not like, oh no,
Speaker:something's wrong with you. But it's more of, oh yeah, of course, me too,
Speaker:and how can we get through this together? And how can I be there for
Speaker:you? So I think sharing this more, allowing for empathy,
Speaker:allowing for non judgment to take place, and for
Speaker:allowing people to really feel like they're
Speaker:okay to be fully expressed without having repercussions.
Speaker:Right. And also, when you really need help,
Speaker:make sure you get help. Let's break that stigma. Either you're not
Speaker:a crazy person, we all need help, right? So allow yourself to have
Speaker:the support system that you really need, because it's going to be crucial
Speaker:for you. Fantastic. Heather,
Speaker:everything Danielle just said, that was perfect, I think.
Speaker:Yes. It is our responsibilities as humans to
Speaker:care for ourselves, to seek help when we need it,
Speaker:to not let fear of other people's perceptions
Speaker:or misguided information influence us. It's our
Speaker:responsibilities to be more open to
Speaker:the individuals in our lives that we work with and not tie narratives to
Speaker:what we see them doing or how they're behaving,
Speaker:but actually be open to being vulnerable with them
Speaker:and conversing with them and not being scared of this. Because this doesn't
Speaker:have to be scary stuff. We all have got something.
Speaker:We're either dealing with it personally or we've got family members that are dealing with
Speaker:it. And we just need to recognize the humanity in
Speaker:each other and welcome that in. And it's going to just be
Speaker:exponentially better. Absolutely. Christy I
Speaker:again agree with everything that Danielle and Heather have stated,
Speaker:so I co sign on all of that. Kind of piggybacking on
Speaker:what they said was just to normalize that mental health is
Speaker:mental health. There's no difference between physiological health. How about the mind body
Speaker:connection? Got separated by somebody's? Brilliant idea. I have no idea.
Speaker:Your brain controls everything. So if that's out, if something's off there,
Speaker:everything else is going to be off the sleep. It just elevates
Speaker:everything and then changing the language in a way to help
Speaker:normalize everything. So as we change and grow.
Speaker:So terms like idiot, moron and imbecile were
Speaker:diagnostic terms way back when. So that is taken on a pejorative context
Speaker:and so that is no longer being used, but changing how we say it
Speaker:now, instead of saying somebody committed suicide, has died by suicide,
Speaker:to help kind of destigmatize that. So I think that's just
Speaker:pieces of what we can do. This is a larger issue. We could have a
Speaker:whole hour devoted just to this. That's a start. And then worry about
Speaker:your own self care. Self care, self care, self care, self care.
Speaker:100%. I'm a big fan of that. And as
Speaker:a final thought, as we wrap up here, there are countless groups
Speaker:on social media, facebook in particular, and other
Speaker:social platforms, where I have found I
Speaker:can come in and participate in conversation. I can commiserate, I can
Speaker:share, I can gather support from other folks as needed.
Speaker:If you're dealing with some specific issue, anxiety or
Speaker:any of the particular pathologies, find some of these support groups on there,
Speaker:join them. You don't even have to participate in the conversation. You can just lurk
Speaker:and read other people's experiences. It really is meaningful
Speaker:and I think it allows you to be connected in some way.
Speaker:And in our show notes, we are absolutely going to provide some resources for some
Speaker:of the things that we've talked about. But keep your head up out there,
Speaker:folks. It's tough for everybody. And mental health is something that
Speaker:we have to actively pay attention to, and again, starting with
Speaker:ourselves, not just those around us. Because if it doesn't start with me,
Speaker:then I'm not going to be of any good to anybody else. So with
Speaker:much love and support and encouragement from all of us here at the Unplugged.
Speaker:My business community, that's our show today, and we will see you next Tuesday.
